MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:

We’re going to start the program today with the question that countries are facing around the world, and that is how to address the flow of human beings who for whatever reason want to leave their homes for somewhere else. In the European Union, the answer to that question could determine the future of Angela Merkel’s government. In a few minutes, we’ll go to Germany, where European leaders have been debating again how open their borders should be. Here in the U.S., that debate continues also with a particular focus at the moment on the procedures and the people that migrants confront when they cross the southern border.

Now, in the wake of the outrage about families being separated, some Democrats are now calling to abolish Immigration and Customs Enforcement, known as ICE. We called one of the people making that argument. She is Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal. She’s a Democrat. She represents Washington state’s 7th District, and she’s with us now.

Congresswoman, thank you so much for speaking to us.

PRAMILA JAYAPAL: Thank you, Michel.

MARTIN: So I understand that you’re planning to introduce legislation with another representative, Mark Pocan of Wisconsin, that would abolish ICE. What exactly are you proposing?

JAYAPAL: Well, the legislation as we’re drafting it now would actually set up a commission that would have a period of time to work on alternatives to really how we redesign the functions of ICE and where we put them. And then ICE would be abolished at the end of that time with the best alternative being chosen. And, you know, what I would say about this, Michel, is that there was enforcement of immigration laws before ICE, and there will be after ICE. I mean, ICE was a creation shortly after 9/11, and I will just say it has become a rogue agency with no accountability, no transparency, wasting taxpayer dollars and a very misdirected focus.

MARTIN: So let’s now go to the politics. President Trump responded to these calls this morning on Fox. Here it is.

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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: You know, ICE – these are the guys that go in and take MS-13, and they take…